Ep 35. So you want to make documentary films ft. filmmaker Lisa Rideout

So often in academia we critique problematic depictions in the media; but, what does it look like to get on the other side and create new representation? Filmmaker Lisa Rideout talks about her journey leaving academia to make documentary films.

When she started talking about putting post-its on the wall to plan and visualize her projects, I knew we were going to get along. 😂 

Lisa shares great insight & advice on:

• the power of storytelling and representation
• following your gut & creating your path forward
• practical tips to pursue a creative dream
• how to get started making documentary films

Connect with Lisa on Instagram.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):

Welcome back to the Millennial PhD podcast. Today I'm talking with Lisa Rideout, who is an award-winning director who makes films about topics that p make people uncomfortable death, sex identity, race, politics, and more are presented from a nuanced perspective that challenges stereotypes with the aim of creating more tolerance. She's unafraid to tackle controversial topics and has done so by showcasing the stories of musicians, sex workers, activists, death, doulas, adult entertainers, and more. She's directed content for Netflix, Crave cbc and Vice. Lisa founded her production company, Lifted Eyes Media in 2013. She has an MFA in media, uh, in documentary Media. She's me from Ryerson University and her MA in Critical Media and Cultural Studies from the School of Oriental and African Studies. Lisa, welcome and thank you for being here. 

Speaker 2 (00:53):

Thanks for having me. That's mouthful, those degrees. I know, 

Speaker 1 (00:57):

I know, definitely. Um, amazing. Uh, I'm so excited to have you on. I think I came across you, I think I saw a post I was searching through Instagram. I think, um, looking for recovering academic type posts. I, I think I saw a post that you had written about your decision to step away from academia and dive in, jump into film, which was also a super challenging field. And I think there's a lot of academics who are leaving right now or thinking about leaving, who are looking at creative industries that they're interested in and thinking about whether or not can I do that? Can I jump in and go for that? Um, so I'm sure a lot of people are gonna be interested to hear a little bit about your story. Um, I read off your bio, but maybe we could just start with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Speaker 2 (01:43):

Yeah, yeah. Where do I start? <laugh> <laugh>. Um, well, in terms of my, kinda like getting into film, I like to say like I didn't grow up wanting to be a filmmaker. I didn't grow up with that as a possibility. My mom was a nurse and I grew up in the suburbs of Ontario, um, this place called Canata. And yeah, I think like the creative industries like that, that didn't, it wasn't part of our world necessarily. That wasn't an option. Um, so I came to it later in life, uh, when I decided to ditch my potential PhD and then, um, yeah, take the root of filmmaking. So do you want me to jump into chatting about that, kind of how I got into it or? 

Speaker 1 (02:28):

Sure, yeah. Maybe, um, what brought you first did the decision to pivot away from academia and then maybe what pulled you toward film in particular? Those are two big questions. So, 

Speaker 2 (02:39):

You know, I feel like the hardest part of being a filmmaker people would be like, Tell me a little bit about yourself, or like, Oh, we're, we're filmmakers, so I don't know, I don't have a life outside of this. Who am I? 

Speaker 1 (02:51):

Yeah, that's always kind of a terrifying question. I still don't have like my whatever elevator pitch of myself. People are like, Tell me about 

Speaker 2 (02:59):

Yourself. I'm like, Good few lines. I'm like, Oh, I don't know. I have a daughter. 

Speaker 1 (03:02):

What version are you gonna get today, <laugh>? 

Speaker 2 (03:06):

Um, but yeah, so, uh, like my academic career, so I did an undergrad degree in international development studies at York, which is in Toronto, and I really focused on representations of the developing world. So I was looking at, you know, nonprofit advertisements, specifically war child and World Vision and why they selected specific imagery to represent the developing world and how I thought that was problematic and where it came from. So then I went on to do that master's degree, um, at sos in critical media and cultural studies, and that was awesome. That's a school in the UK and London. And it, it was great, but I think, um, you know, sitting in the ivory tower and talking about people that weren't there always felt strange to me. And, you know, as all recovering academics know, it's such an isolating field. Like I was there, you know, writing by myself for hours and hours and hours on end. Yeah. It's not a collaborative process necessarily. It, it felt quite like we were meant to tear each other down. Like you're focused on criticism, right? So yeah, 

Speaker 1 (04:20):

Find, find your, find your gap, find your like picking point 

Speaker 2 (04:23):

For sure. Yeah. Like, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. And yeah, that sort of environment I think could be really hard for people. So what happened was I had applied for my PhD, um, in Communication and Cultures. It, there's a program here and at Ryerson in York, it's a joint program. And I was waitlisted, so I think I was five on the wait list. And like that was my plan to get into my PhD to work with this specific professor. I was very focused on doing that. And so I was an Ottawa living with my mom again, I think back from London, straight to Ottawa. And I went to a conference called Neglected Media in Ottawa. And I was like, This is gonna be amazing neglected media. Like, we're gonna talk, we're gonna uncover this media that nobody knows about. Like, it just felt like such an interesting topic. 

(05:15)
And instead I was sitting in like a really uninspired, non-descript board room, having people read their thesis papers, like verbatim. And I was just like, honestly, that was the moment that I was like, I don't think I can do this for the rest of my life. This is so boring. I'm spending my whole life writing a paper for two other people maybe that will hear it or read it. Um, and the critical aspect, right? We're all like critiquing something and I really was like, I think I should pivot and try to focus on creating representations that I didn't think were problematic. Um, and that really led me to do more research. I do, I think I had a blog once upon a time that was called Recovering Academic, cuz I was like, like a good little academic. I did more school after I dropped outta my PhD <laugh>. 

(06:07)
And so I found Ryerson has a documentary media program, which is a master's degree. And I did think, you know, I think we're all trained when you're in academia that you gotta be like, you have to have the proper training to justify what you're doing. So it was a good move. And yeah, I, I went, I did that program that's I think about 10 years ago. But, um, yeah, really the impetus for leaving academia was, I think just getting really honest with myself about whether it's what I wanted or that I had kind of come up with this identity, like myself was an academic and that's how people knew me. And you know, you have ego tied into that and, and then just being like, can I actually do this? Is this what I want to be doing for the rest of my life? And then as we know, there's such a high percent of people that drop out of their PhDs. So I was like, I don't, I don't think I'm gonna make it. I don't think I could do it. So yeah. That, that's the story that led me out of it. 

Speaker 1 (07:06):

Yeah, definitely. And there's, I think there's so many points in there that are gonna res that resonate with me and are gonna resonate with people listening that like your identity getting tied up in it or just like sitting in, even in a classroom during the PhD program and just having a reading or something that we were discussing and it's like the first thing we don't even talk about what it was about, it was just like, who can find, who can find the critiques? Um, and of course, critique is, is great, right? Super important, but at the same time it's like the energy never seems to be there to build the something new, Right. Or to, to create or to, you know, envision the better <laugh>. 

Speaker 2 (07:45):

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I think that like you hit the nail on the head when it's like we're consistently criticizing and not building and that always felt like so wrong to me. I'm like, we're just criticizing, so how about we think about something new? And that's what I wanted to do. Like, I'm like, okay, I think all of these depictions are problematic. That's all I'm saying. So how about I imagine something that's not that. And I do think being in a critical environment affects your psyche so much. Like I carry that with me, that people will just constantly be critical of me. Hmm. Because that's the environment that I was in for so long. 

Speaker 1 (08:24):

Wow. Yeah, definitely. So let that, yeah, that <laugh>, that really hit me for sure. Um, I'm sure, I'm sure a lot of people are carrying that with them as well. Um, let's talk a little bit then too about, okay, so you make the decision to pursue film. How did you get from that point, that decision point to where you're on where you are now, um, which is like, you know, you seem to be working actively and 

Speaker 2 (08:54):

Successfully in your industry. Yeah, I'll say so I think simultaneously when I was making the decision, I, you know, consistently worked in nonprofit organizations and I was part of a nonprofit organization called Good Evidence that was creating alternative representations of the developing world. And I say developing world in quotes, but you can't see me on the podcast. So, uh, it wasn't kind of out of nowhere that I was like, Oh, okay, I'm gonna be a filmmaker. I was involved with doing that, um, and seeing what the possibilities were. So that also helped this choice. So I went to Ryerson, that was a two year program. Um, it was like quite academic as well, and I was kind of like, Oh, I've written all these essays for so many years, but I did, you know, make my first short film, which was nice. I had to do everything. 

(09:46)
So I was shooting, uh, doing sound editing, kind of came out knowing how to do that. And then I was, I got a job at the Canadian Film Center, which is an institution in Canada that trains kind of up and coming directors, producers, um, writers, composers, actors, everyone involved, uh, in making a film. And honestly, that was quite eyeopening to me, um, in terms of what sort of collaboration you need to make a film because like in academia, you're, you're yourself on an island, you know, you're by yourself trying to make this thing. And then the program that I went to for documentary, you did do everything yourself. And documentary can be quite isolating because you work with these small crews and often, you know, the director's, the producer, and they're possibly also the cinematographer. So watching a crew of 30 people make something and how they're all contributing, um, how it has to be collaborative to work properly was really helpful for me. 

(10:51)
So I saw that, um, I worked there for a few years and while I was there I was s you know, I was working those long hours in the production office and then I was coming home and trying to make my own films, um, and did a few short documentaries, which was really great. Our, you know, financing system I think is, is pretty good in Canada maybe compared to parts of the states where, um, we used to have this amazing fund called Bravo Factual that funded my first short film and they gave you like a good chunk of change to make a short documentary. And I, so that was the first funded film that I did after doing like a whole bunch of stuff with friends, really kind of knowing what my vision was for films. And I got that financing and, um, made my first short film. 

(11:39)
And that led to, uh, the CB working with the cbc, which is our public broadcaster, like PBS, I think. Um, and yeah, they financed it like I think three short films that I I did, which was awesome. And when I was doing that, I left my job in the production office and I'd always off and on hostess at restaurants. So working in a production office full-time during the day, which is very long hours, doesn't necessarily create the best, you know, set of circumstances to make your own work. I'm really grateful for that job, but I was like, okay, I just need something more flexible. So it was a really interesting experience and um, blow to the ego in a good way, I think to have, you know, two master's degrees at that point and be hostessing at a restaurant with 18 year olds <laugh>. So, um, I went back to Hostessing and that's to say like, this type of work is so tumultuous and unstable that you're kind of doing whatever you need to at the time to make your films and that that's how dedicated one needs to be to making films. 

(12:51)
So I was that cleaning toilets at restaurants and um, yeah, uh, making my film simultaneously obviously, you know, being able to work during the day on films and then going to the restaurants at night was quite helpful. And that led to connecting with a production company that was doing a series called, This Is Pop, which is on Netflix right now. And I kind of went from short films to directing what an episode for them called, What Can a Song Do? And that was awesome. That was like a jump for me from making short films to being in TV and creating something for, you know, Bell on our side and Netflix in the States. Um, you know, interviewing celebrities, which was cool and a different experience. Um, and then I, from there, which was a few years ago, jumped in to making a feature film that I'm currently wrapping up this week or next week, um, about Su Johansen who for Americans as our Dr. Ruth, but she also had a show in the States that was quite popular where 4 million Americans watch. So she's kind of Canada's sex grandma and she's never had a film and she's a huge icon. So that's been great. That's like, that's the end of my journey. 

Speaker 1 (14:11):

Amazing, Thank you. That that's, it's really helpful enough kind of a comprehensive description of the different stepping stones that you were taking to get to the point that you're at right now. One of the things that I've heard from multiple people who come on and do work in a creative industry, you have some sort or another is like you have to do it, like you have to do the thing. Like if you wanna be a writer, you have like the ideas, like you have to, you gotta write some, one way or another, you gotta be writing the screenplay or writing the manuscript or whatever it is. You gotta be making the films one way or another. Um, so it's really interesting to hear kind of the different, different ways that that came to fruition for you. Are there, this is sort of like a sort of a floppy question, but one thing that I think people are thinking about a lot right now, especially people who are pivoting or changing careers, stepping away from academia or other careers that they've been in, is how to take skills that they already feel comfortable with and apply them to these other things. 

(15:16)
So are there skills that you feel like you tap into a lot that came from some of your academic training? 

Speaker 2 (15:22):

A a thousand percent. A thousand percent. And I, I tell people that, that often people from other careers get into documentaries specifically later in life and the writing skills are amazing. You know, like there's a lot of writing that's involved with financing documentaries and I'm constantly writing treatments or outlines and the ability, I think even to analyze ideas and then get them down on paper and connect them with each other. Like, I think, I haven't written an essay for a long time, but when I think when I try to think back to it and those like, what was it, your intro and you had like three points and you had a conclusion, but just the way that those had to flow with each other and that you had to prove your point skills that I got from writing essays over and over and over again have been so helpful. 

(16:14)
Yeah. With written applications, but also just how to analyze ideas and connect them together I think is so helpful with the creative process. And maybe we don't think of essays or academia as particularly creative, but they are, you know, we're working with ideas, we're trying to create new ideas and get them down on paper at a quite a high level, right? Like, you're dealing with these lofty big ideas that can, Oh, I remember reading so many things where I'm like, I have no idea what this means, but just having to graph some of that is so helpful. 

Speaker 1 (16:47):

Great. Yeah, that's, that's super helpful. Um, so I'm gonna pivot very slightly here cuz I like to ask some nuts and bolts questions, um, so that people can get like a little bit of a window into what your day to day is like as a filmmaker. Um, what does a typical day look like for you right now? 

Speaker 2 (17:08):

Um, I mean I bet all filmmakers are like, there's no typical day, but, um, I, so I've been in post production, I've been editing a film for a few months at this point. So what it, what it usually has looked like is I go into the office, which is nice to actually have a space set somewhere else. Um, and I would be in the edit suite with my editor, let's say for most of the day, um, yeah, when I'm editing. So kind of the process with that is I do writing, I'm going through transcripts. I think that too, not to like go back too far, but is a helpful skill like that can come from academia. Yeah, I'm constantly transcribing the interviews and going through them, which is something that happens when we're writing essays. So, and I have like a color coded method that comes from academia. 

(18:04)
Yeah. I brought all of that into my practice. I'm like, everybody probably thinks they're like, what is up with this person? But all my color coded methods, even like getting post-its up on the wall to imagine how everything's gonna fit in with each other comes from academia. So organizational methods are quite helpful. Um, but yeah, I would sit with my editor, you know, for all or most of the day, um, and go through. But, so because I'm finishing it off right now, I just have a bunch of simultaneous tasks that are happening where I'm sitting in front of my computer, you know, answering emails, trying to think about the next project is a thing. So, um, you know, making a film is quite hard. I'm trying to give myself right now some time to be inspired. So reading things, being outside. Um, but yeah, what I'll say is like being a director and a producer because you're across the entire project. 

(19:00)
My last film took, you know, it's going on three years, maybe two years, three years, which is actually short for a documentary, um, that you go through the different stages, which I, so the beginning part you're sitting at your desk writing a lot, like that's it, you're writing, you're coming up with treatments, you're getting people on the phone to pre-interview them and yeah, submitting funding applications. So that part of it I think, I mean I love every part, but I feel like the best part of it is shooting because you're on your feet and for someone who's like constantly behind, you know, my computer on a desk and for academia sitting at my computer for years and years and years, I just love being on set, being with people, interviewing. Um, it's one of those things where I know it's right because I'm fully present. Like I, I feel like I blink and the day's over, which is an amazing feeling. Um, and then, yeah, and then you go to editing and you're back to like sitting behind a computer and figuring out the, how all the footage is gonna come together with your editor and then figuring out what's next. So it does really vary depending on what stage you are in the film. It's a long answer, but 

Speaker 1 (20:17):

<laugh> it's great. I love this question because I, I always pretty much ask it in the interviews and you get a real range of answers from every day's different or different phases work out a little bit different to some folks depending on their, their fields. Um, even like entrepreneurship, some people have like a super regimented timetable and other people have it all set out. And I think it's great to, because you hear about these different possibilities. Um, yeah, 

Speaker 2 (20:45):

I mean, I say too, like being a director, producer, you are an entrepreneur. Like I have my own company, so, you know, you have to schedule your day like your, you know, so I don't, if I don't have a project, I don't have money, so. Yeah. Right. 

Speaker 1 (21:02):

Um, what would you say is a rose and a thorn for you right now? So something that you love about the work that you're doing and something that is not so great? 

Speaker 2 (21:11):

Um, yeah, I, I mean I, I love making films. I feel like the best part about documentary is that you connect with people that you wouldn't necessarily like, you just, I love, like I said, shooting, like being on set, being with people, interviewing them, and just learning about their lives. And I think it comes from being a curious person, which, you know, I think a lot of academics are like, you're learning about ideas, so you're curious about the world, you're curious about how it works. And then you get to chat with people about their experiences of the world and you know, the bio that you read, like, I've just had such a diverse experience of making different types of films and talking to different people and really getting to know them. And I think that's awesome cuz you learn about yourself, you learn about the world through that process and you always come out of a film knowing something different. Um, I think something that I also really love that bothered me about academia was so how intellectual academia was, it felt like there was no space for emotion. 

Speaker 1 (22:22):

And 

Speaker 2 (22:24):

Um, you know, I think that's really hard and, and problematic for a variety of reasons. But, um, I, when I started to jump into making films, I really wanted it to be guided through emotion mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that's actually hard sometimes with documentary because we have this idea that you're, it's supposed to be intellectual, you watch documentary, you learn something. Although I think we're moving away from that with every single documentary that's on, you know, streaming platforms. So I really do want people to have an emotional experience when they watch the films that I make because I think I have a hard time retaining information for a long period of time. I was always like that with academia. I could write an essay and memorize it for the exam the next day and then it was outta my head. Yeah. Um, so I, I don't necessarily have long term retention of information, I dunno why, but, um, I always remember like an emotional connection to something. 

(23:26)
Yes. Right. I'm sure that's a pretty common human experience, but if you feel something it stays with you where like the intellect can go, I think, a bit or like something that's absorbed that way. So that's to say like, I love the emotional process of making a film and trying to have audiences feel something mm-hmm. <affirmative> when they're watching it. And then the hardest part, I mean, it is very, very hard to make a film. I'll say that across, across every stage of it. There are challenges. Um, and I, I'd say like, you know, documentary again can be quite isolating because your teams are small mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, when I'm directing, producing, it's kind of like I'm the one across the different stages. Um, so I mean, you work with amazing people along those stages, but you are the one that's going through them, so it can be lonely at times. 

Speaker 1 (24:22):

Yeah, for sure. Um, thank you for sharing. If someone asked you today and said, I love what you're doing, I wanna do something similar, what might be some first steps that you would advise them to take? 

Speaker 2 (24:40):

Um, I mean, I think, you know that if it, Yeah. If someone wanted to make a documentary film because technology is accessible, you can pick up a camera and start shooting something. Um, and, and just see how that is for you. Like how, how it feels, right. I think it's good. I feel like at the beginning to shoot subjects that are close to you. So, you know, is your mom an amazing film subject? Are your parents like quirky with each other? Should you make a documentary about them? Just pick up your camera and start shooting and like, if you don't have a camera and use your phone. Um, but cameras are, you know, it's easy to get a camera, get a microphone, so the sound's not bad. Um, and yeah, start shooting it. And I would say like you can, like I did work in restaurants or have another job and make films like you can have that career, you can stay in academia and make films and, and actually I feel like now lots of academic programs are open to having a visual component. 

(25:50)
Yeah. Like if you can, you know, kind of make a film as part of your thesis or part of your research, like that seems like an awesome thing to be doing so that you can have funny while you're making it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but yeah, I'd say pick up your camera, start shooting something, watch documentaries and films that you love. Um, Right. Like, I think journaling is so important, I think to know what you wanna creatively tap into. You have to feel quite connected to yourself. So it's doing that personal work like in the morning, do your morning pages journal, do something to feel connected. If you feel connected to yourself walking in the forest, go, go do that. But, um, yeah, you have to, you have to figure out what you creatively want to do. And I think that takes work. I think especially stepping away from academia, that takes work to figure out what your voice is. 

(26:46)
Um, so yeah, I would say those things. And then with film is like a career path that is wanted, I think, you know, it's a very, it's kind of like an an up or down, it's tumultuous, right? You can, you can have a film and it's amazing for a year or two, and then maybe you won't get work again. Um, and you're having to do something else. So I think you have to have like quite an adaptable personality and you have to not be risk averse. Like you, you have to have a personality that's okay with risk and Okay. With, um, it not being stable. 

Speaker 1 (27:25):

Yeah, sure. And I love the conversations like this are always, um, they can be really invigorating too to hear about what you've done and what you're doing because it's like the possibilities get cracked open a little bit, especially if we've been in academia, which is like, there is a very particular path that's supposed to be laid out and that path is not even working for 90 to 95% of people, but it's still the idealized pathway. And so starting to crack that open and say, Well, there are these other things to do and other ways to look at it is, is super helpful. 

Speaker 2 (28:00):

Yeah. I do think there, there are many academics that become filmmakers and they can be really good filmmakers. Like it does feel like quite a transferable. Like you obviously have to get other skills, but again, just the way that academics can deal with ideas, I think can be quite strong when it's transferred into film. 

Speaker 1 (28:19):

Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to talk about a little bit? 

Speaker 2 (28:27):

I don't think so. I just, yeah, definitely wanna be encouraging if people are thinking about making films to just do it. You can, you can secretly do it on your phone if you're feeling embarrassed about it. Um, there's just, yeah. Now that you don't need to go ask 30 people to make a film your first film, um, I think it's so accessible and it's obviously very scary to take the jump. Like, I thought I was gonna be in academia, that's it for the rest of my life. And that's, you know, what I had and I am so happy that I took the risk and jumped, you know, and they, you know, even I was thinking about it a bit like after I did it and, you know, I was offered money that felt quite like, quite a lot of money at the time for my PhD, which is not actually to survive, but at that point it was like, they're gonna gimme money to do my PhD. 

Speaker 1 (29:19):

Can't believe it. 

Speaker 2 (29:20):

Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. Like, I'm rich. You're like, No, that's like, no. Um, so it did, yeah. It felt like, oh, I'm giving up something that feels like it's what I wanted to do and it's a sure bet, but you know, I think you life is short. You have to just follow your heart and do what you wanna be doing and it, and it works out, you know, it really does. 

Speaker 1 (29:45):

So you sort of just, just did this, but my last question that I have to ask is, do you have any general parting advice that you'd like to give? And if you have any particular advice that you wanna put out there for women, people of color, or other folks who have been traditionally kind of marginalized in filmmaking, is there anything in particular that you'd wanna say? 

Speaker 2 (30:05):

Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to filmmaking feeling more accessible now. Um, I don't, you know, I feel like in Canada we're trying to bring the barriers down to people that have been left out of the industry slowly, slowly, slowly. Um, but at least the conversation is happening around, you know, having more bipo filmmakers in those stories and the right people being behind the camera, in front of the camera in positions of power in the industry. So, you know, it feels like it's changing or the conversations are happening, which is hopeful. Like I think we're in a hopeful time to move forward and yeah. And it is more accessible. So I would say just there are so many important stories that haven't been traditionally in the mainstream media and I think the time is now to tell them. So pick up those cameras and do them. And I think too, it's like very important who you collaborate with. Mm. So finding people with the same values as you, the same creative vision. Um, having those conversations with, you know, if you're a director, potential pro producers or like anyone that's on your team and, and that's even at the level of like, I'm picking up my camera and I'm asking my friend to help me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just to be working with the right people really, really helps the process. 

Speaker 1 (31:37):

Great. Um, where can people connect with you? 

Speaker 2 (31:41):

Um, you can connect with me on my Instagram. Oh my god, I gotta plug my Instagram. Let's see, 

Speaker 1 (31:47):

<laugh>, 

Speaker 2 (31:49):

I don't even know what my name is on my Instagram. I mean, my name's Lisa rdo, but I feel like my Instagram handle is write out l 

Speaker 1 (31:59):

Great. So that will be linked in the episode notes for this episode, um, maybe along with your website so people can check out your work. Thank you so much, um, for your time and for coming on. This has been super interesting and helpful. 

Speaker 2 (32:14):

Thanks for having me. It was fun. Brings me back to my academic days.